In this episode from The Headcount People podcast, we interview Raman Mann, a seasoned RecOps professional with almost 10 years experience in People & Talent Programs, Operations, and Systems.
In this conversation, we dive deep into the world of RecOps and headcount management, discussing various tools, team collaboration, alignment strategies, communication with stakeholders, talent mapping, and more. Join us as we explore the chapter list questions below, with:
🎙️Our Host: Tushar Makhija, Founder/CEO at TeamOhanaLearn more about Tushar: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tusharmakhija/
🎙️Special Guest: Raman Mann, RecOps specialistLearn more about Raman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramandeepmann/
00:00 - Cold Open
03:11 - When you joined your last companies, what tools did you use?
05:34 - Which teams work together on headcount management?
06:52 - How do you make sure that everyone is aligned?
08:19 - What happens after you get the list of approved headcount?
12:24 - How do you communicate with hiring managers and finance about changes?
14:36 - How do you prioritize tools?
15:53 - When do you upload approved roles to the ATS?
19:05 - What is the impact of that inefficiency from your unique lens and your experience?
20:10 - Things that you would like the finance team to do better?
20:47 - Suggestions for hiring managers to work with recruiting ops?
21:58 - How can recruiting support budget variance tracking?
22:57 - How have you optimized tools to communicate with other stakeholders?
24:02 - What effort does it take to prepare a manual spreadsheet or keep the manual spreadsheet up to date?
25:13 - Is there a benefit of keeping things up to date in a more realtime basis?
26:35 - What are the types of questions that say business leaders want to know?
27:57 - What are some of the things you're doing differently now that we're all working from home to drive alignment and collaboration?
29:20 - How do you do talent mapping with the HR business partner?
30:39 - What does good organizational design look like?
32:21 - What would be your advice and blueprint for future Rec Ops professionals?
34:38 - What would you do differently and what should people be really careful about?
35:32 - How optimistic are you about the future, and what brings that optimism to you?
[00:00:00] Raman Mann: Do we have the budget for that? Does that budget meet with the overall business strategy? Can we actually fulfill it? At the end of the day, I think those inefficiencies really hinder towards. Feeding the goal of headcount planning. And it can cause a lot of misalignment that we don't want.
[00:00:19] Tushar: Hello everyone and welcome to episode seven of the Headcount People. Today with me, I have a ramen man who has been a rec ops [00:00:30] professional and rec ops manager for the last decade, and has worked at a lot of high growth companies.
[00:00:35] Welcome, ramen. How are you? Thank you.
[00:00:37] Raman Mann: Thanks for having me, Tahar. I'm excited to be here.
[00:00:40] Tushar: That's great. So a little bit of context here. I got introduced to Ramon a couple of years back when she was still at Wheel. And as we were building out Team Moana and trying to understand the headcount management processes, we got a lot of good information and good conversations going on that front [00:01:00] most recently.
[00:01:01] We wanted to now expand the scope of the Headcount People Podcast to also bring in talent leaders, recruiting leaders, and HR leaders. So Ramon, you are our first talent leader, and you are also our first woman podcast presenter on the headcount people. So lots of good, interesting things up ahead.
[00:01:24] Why don't we start with a quick introduction.
[00:01:27] Raman Mann: Yeah definitely. I'm a rec ops [00:01:30] professional. Carry around almost eight years of experience working specifically in recruiting operations and people operations and programs for hypergrowth startups as well as working on a public company setting as well.
[00:01:42] I love being able to bring structure towards a. Whether it's a chaotic or a hypergrowth type of stage, I've done that twice in the past and it's something I love to always talk about and share best practices.
[00:01:55] Tushar: That's great. Hypergrowth and headcount management go really close to each other.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] You can either, if you do it really well the company is thriving. And of course in the last 18 months we've also seen situations where if you don't get headcount management right, then you have downstream problems around running out of cash or also scheduling layoffs. Can you give us a little more context on when did you join the last two companies and you said they were hyper growth.
[00:02:22] Can you set the context on when did you join, what was the tooling there? And then when you left what was the state of the organization at [00:02:30] that
[00:02:30] Raman Mann: time? Yeah, definitely. The first one I joined was series D FinTech Company. Starting around, I would say 130 employees. Hyper-growth, growing into a additional running funding rounds processes in place were very manual spreadsheet accounting.
[00:02:47] A lot of the headcount that we had. My second startup, also very similar, series B around a hundred folks looking to double that growth and also upholding a lot of the information on a manual spreadsheet. [00:03:00] Both cases have been in, I've seen it where the Excel sheet tries to capture everything, specifically Google Sheets.
[00:03:07] Tushar: Yes, EXO is that master tool that everybody uses. Not always optimized for specific functions, but at least so far it gets the job done. So let's take a deep dive. Most recently you published an article and for our listeners, we will have those in our show notes around the role recruiting operations plays.
[00:03:28] When it comes to [00:03:30] effective headcount management, all our listeners, can you please explain in your own words, what do you mean by effective headcount management?
[00:03:38] Raman Mann: Yeah, if I could describe it, I would say it's pretty much with the business goals at hand, having short-term and long-term business objectives be met by headcount needs so, or headcount fill fulfillment.
[00:03:54] Whether it's a short-term project that needs to be accomplished or a long-term project, whether it's someone there for [00:04:00] full-time, it's pretty much utilizing headcount to meet the needs at hand for the business. I would say
[00:04:07] Tushar: I've said this before, that in this, in the hyper growth phase, organizational growth or head growth comes before.
[00:04:18] Revenue growth. But I think the rigor and the planning that we do on the revenue side of things does not truly translate into the headcount side of the things. So I really liked when you said effective [00:04:30] headcount management brings together, how does a company use headcount to hit its business goals?
[00:04:36] So let's now start unpacking each of these individual items. Let's start with which are the teams that need to work together when it comes to headcount management, and what is the purview of each of these organizations or each of these teams within an organization?
[00:04:53] Raman Mann: Yeah, definitely. First three that come top of mind is fp and a finance with finance, [00:05:00] bringing upon the budget budgeting, and as well as just Financial picture. They have that insight. Second team, I would say is HR, VPs or equivalent of like talent management. They're the really much, the insights of how each organization is performing.
[00:05:14] They know what in terms of the gaps look like, in terms of talent what could look in terms of succession planning and so on and so forth. And lastly, I would say Definitely the recruiting team cuz they will be working on filling those gaps that they see within the headcount plan [00:05:30] that we have.
[00:05:31] Tushar: What you're explaining still seems to be a very collaborative process, but I think, we both worked in fast organizations. How do you make sure that everyone is aligned? And let's start from the very beginning. If you, if we have to map out the life cycle of account management it starts with that budgeting process.
[00:05:53] But then what can you give us a timeline of like how different teams work together, [00:06:00] what tools they use, and then how the, at the end of the quarter or at the end of the year, you can go back and see how successful we were in delivering on the headcount goals?
[00:06:10] Raman Mann: Yeah, I've seen the, like what I can share is where, particularly when it comes to headcount requests, that's mostly done on an annual basis.
[00:06:17] And then, Iterated on a quarterly basis as needed. Mostly that happens around the year end request for next year's headcount being requested by finance. And then more so Hrpp [00:06:30] played that tag team of advising where those gaps are, where the needs are and seeing if there's any internal type of movement that could come into play from there when there is a full vetted list.
[00:06:43] Recruiting comes into play in helping fill fulfilling that list. And I've definitely seen in many cases, hypergrowth where it changes more. So having that quarterly sync is very essential, just to make sure we're all aligned When it comes to the business needs, sometimes yields don't go through our [00:07:00] product development doesn't go as planned and things change.
[00:07:03] Having that kind of quarterly syncs helps check in. From the time whenever finance has that initial annual request, right?
[00:07:12] Tushar: Completely agree on the agility front, right? That if you must be able to track progress, not just on how quickly we've hired people, but have those people onboarded and become productive enough before we go hire more people.
[00:07:27] So let's assume that we start with this company's [00:07:30] account planning. You have a vetted list, it is available to you starting January 1st. What happens
[00:07:36] Raman Mann: next? Yeah, in terms of, for the recruiting team is definitely more of seeing that list and. Going and running with the races. I would say as in feeling that role or feeling that listen at hand.
[00:07:50] And it really requires, I think in my eyes, I've seen a lot of maintenance. What exactly do we mean by a certain type of role, whether it's a software engineer, [00:08:00] where do they actually fit in the talent picture overall? And that kind of, I've seen in many cases, Working together with the hrps after getting that list, understanding and working with the hiring managers where the full picture is when filling in that particular list we get, or what the gaps are that we see in finding new talent.
[00:08:18] Tushar: So let's get into a little bit let's double click on finding the gaps. , who is responsible, like what role is the hiring manager playing and what role is the talent team [00:08:30] playing in this? How are they actually identifying these gaps? Because as I understand, existing employees are sitting in a different system.
[00:08:36] The hiring plan is sitting in probably in a spreadsheet. So how do you join this data set and make sense out
[00:08:41] Raman Mann: of it? When it comes to just once you get that list of. Who we are actually recruiting for. It's really important to set a kickoff and that kickoff can entail, I would say, four key parts. First, essentially being able to understand what are the must-haves and nice to haves of particularly that role, but also the [00:09:00] honing in on the positioning.
[00:09:01] What's the leveling in case? How does this new role fit in the current structure of the organization? Another key thing to keep in mind, is this going to be a individual contributor or people manager? Will they lead to more of the growth of building a new team?
[00:09:15] Will they be more so helping on a particular task as an ic? Another key part is also compensation. Being able to understand what current structure is within the company and the grades that we can provide, and helping be able to find that new [00:09:30] talent specifically with compensation. I think that's a very key part to getting under wraps right from the get-go.
[00:09:36] Cuz at the time when it comes to offer, being able to not have that alignment from the first beginning of a kickoff meeting can be really detrimental. Also understanding who's actually gonna interview this person. Who in our team is actually gonna be working together with this new particular world?
[00:09:54] What insights can we get through this interview plan? And having that all ready set from the [00:10:00] kickoff. And lastly, I would say understand the sourcing strategy. What does diversity look like within the team? That's where we can come into play in providing more of an idea. Of essentially where we can find this next talent.
[00:10:13] It's easy to just say, we want this person once versus now, but having that understanding of a strategy for sourcing really helps us be able to see where we can find that talent as a competitive market.
[00:10:23] Tushar: That's great. So to summarize, I think what I'm hearing is. People should stop thinking about [00:10:30] headcount.
[00:10:30] Plan is a list. It's not a shopping list of items. That is just the beginning. You look at a list, you come up with a requirements list, and then you may finish your budgeting there, but that's only step one. Then you have to align on roles and responsibilities, seniority. Prioritization of the roles, compensation.
[00:10:49] And also I've heard this and would love your thoughts on this when the planning happens, there are two things that I've heard. Finance is largely looking at [00:11:00] target start date, which may not be fully qualified on the, can we hire someone on in this timeline or not. And the second is also on the compensation.
[00:11:10] Can you share how. Let's say there is a plan on which has a budget with certain start dates, but now when you have reevaluated things, you have numerous start dates, and you may also have updated compensation. How does that work in terms of coordinating, [00:11:30] adjusting the budget or just adjusting the forecast that, Hey, you think you were gonna spend hundred thousand, but you're gonna spend, how do you communicate?
[00:11:38] That's back between hiring manager and
[00:11:40] Raman Mann: finance. Yeah, serving as the, like a recruiting ops person or rep, representative of the recruiting side, being able to communicate that is very key. And it's, I think it's very essential to be able to determine that from the forefront. Whether that's through the kickoff meeting, when that target state is target start date is[00:12:00] and being able to adjust as needed as we continue to find that new talent to fill that role.
[00:12:06] Being mindful to keep that constant sync of, hey, This per what the talent is showing right now, it may take longer to fill that role, which will essentially have a financial impact towards how we are meeting our target for the headcount. And being able to ensure, I would say at the end of the day, having that synchrony with finance is very key.
[00:12:27] But having the I idea what the [00:12:30] target start data at the forefront is very important. We could have many people start at any time, but essentially, Having a person starting at the right time at the right place allows for whether a product to be able to be developed, building a team and having to implement on time for that team to start.
[00:12:46] It's really a synchrony of I would say more of a story creator. Having that person start at this time, having that development of the company. You come at the right time. What you don't want essentially is when you [00:13:00] hire make a hire for a product. Essentially, and it doesn't go as developed and the team gets laid off.
[00:13:06] That's one of the things you definitely don't want. So having that target star in mind is really important. That's very
[00:13:12] Tushar: interesting because I think my next question was going to be the impact of doing all of this work, and you rightly brought in that if hiring is not done at the right time at the right place, then rifts or layoffs become Become more likely.
[00:13:28] But before we go into that, [00:13:30] can you share a little bit more about, so we got your process, we got your best practices, but the, how is this, because recruiting happens in a ATS and budgeting happens maybe in a fp n a tool or spreadsheet. How do you go and do this prioritization and bring this alignment and
[00:13:51] what tools are you using for that?
[00:13:53] Raman Mann: Yeah, I would say from my experience, I try to mimic as much of a hiring plan into [00:14:00] an at s. Whether that's creating custom fields when opening a rec, for example, like I mentioned during our, like the kickoff meetings that you can have. Input that data of what a target start date is.
[00:14:11] Input that data of compensation ranges, input that data of essentially job levels so you can ensure that data is being reviewed right from the forefront when the rec is open. It really helps determine at the end of the day how that role is gonna be filled and getting the necessary approvals when you [00:14:30] are given an offer.
[00:14:31] Being able to mimic that within the at t s as much as you can, I think is really important. Finding an at t s that can build those custom fields is a game changer. I've had experience doing that with Greenhouse, trying to mimic it as much and being able to essentially more so have that serve as a source of truth versus the spreadsheet.
[00:14:50] Tushar: I'd like to double click a little bit more on that. Yeah, you said that, so there is a hiring plan that has been then. Then there's some alignment that has brought in the hiring plan [00:15:00] usually is built for the full year. Are you suggesting that we take all of these approved roles and create them upfront in the ats?
[00:15:10] Raman Mann: Ideally in a di, I would say if there's a planning perspective that allows certain release of roles at a quarterly basis, that would be ideal to upload. But most ATSs don't function in that way. It's more of the roles been improved already on the forefront, and that we already have [00:15:30] our ducks in a row.
[00:15:31] That's when we open up the wreck. If we can't get to that type of place, I think that's a big a movement. In just terms of the software. There's many different hcms that do that. Like example, like Workday does it really well. I'm advising if we are in a hired for growth stage to do it more so on a quarterly basis if you can.
[00:15:50] Knowing that things may change, having that in the back of your mind is always important.
[00:15:57] Tushar: The best practice just to summarize what you said, [00:16:00] the best practice is at least have the approved roles that you want to hire for the next quarter. Uploaded into the ats, giving recruiters and then to, and the recruiting operations team, enough insight and, making them farsighted to go and plan things out.
[00:16:18] Exactly. I also heard that there is this opportunity, Maybe Workday does it, but there but there is this opportunity to have a system in the middle that has the entire [00:16:30] plan and then you, the entire approved plan, and then you take quarterly chunks of that and push things directly into the ats.
[00:16:39] Alright. Have you successfully seen this work with
[00:16:43] Raman Mann: Workday? I have in the past my hyper growth start of the FinTech company where essentially requesting positions can come right through the H C M itself being able to then see that request, have it approved within the necessary [00:17:00] key stakeholders, whether that's like cost center owners being able to approve it.
[00:17:05] And also when it comes to just restrictions, if you're changing certain job levels or titles, that can also trigger a new approval, right? Through a system. I've seen it before. And having that translate then into a requisition, right?
[00:17:19] Tushar: An ideal system should do the following, then allows you to house your existing plan, be able to make incremental requests.
[00:17:29] [00:17:30] Or change requests that go through an approval process? Yes. Either from, so bringing in the right coordinators between finance, probably HR and hiring managers to get the budget approved and then hopefully with the click button when the job is ready to be hired, open it in ats. All. I think that, that would be ideal.
[00:17:51] Alright. Yeah. Not self that we should build something like that. Ok. But why is this important? Why is [00:18:00] having a, and when I, in terms of hyper growth organizations or any organization for that matter, I think not having such a process, what does that lead to? Or it leads to inefficiency. But what is the impact of that inefficiency from your unique lens and your experience?
[00:18:23] Raman Mann: I would say that it caused a lot of misalignment with the misalignment you could be making unfortunately at the wrong hire at [00:18:30] the wrong time. And it's what the business doesn't need at the end of the day. Going back to what headcount planning essentially is, it's finding that talent for the business need With those inefficiency not being aligned, whether it's approvals, being outside a system, not everyone is actually informed of a change and they need to know whether it's a compensation change to a certain role.
[00:18:52] Do we have the budget for that? Does that budget meet with the overall business strategy? Can we actually fulfill it?[00:19:00] At the end of the day, I think those inefficiencies really hinder towards. Feeding the goal of headcount planning. And it can cause a lot of misalignment that we don't want.
[00:19:12] Tushar: If you had a wish. Things that you would like the finance team to do better? Working, closing, working closely with rec op. Hey, these are some of the things that finance team can do better while coordinating with recruiting operations.
[00:19:27] Raman Mann: Yeah, I would say [00:19:30] flexibility in terms of ranges. Being able to provide that info from the forefront I think is really important. We always have a budget, but understanding that the market, even now with remote culture, people working from anywhere in the country, I think it's very essential to have that information that way a recruiting team is geared to finding talent and knowing how they can target from the get go.
[00:19:54] Tushar: What would be your suggestion or recommendation for hiring managers to [00:20:00] adjust or best practices they can follow while working with the recruiting
[00:20:04] Raman Mann: operations?
[00:20:05] Yeah, for hiring managers, I would say is being really vetted in the system or rather not system process of finding talent. Recruiting is a partner in this. And being able to also give your efforts as a hiring manager, whether it's tapping to your network, really holding your interviewing team accountable, being that person that also falls through with the necessary, whether it's [00:20:30] budget or planning we already had.
[00:20:31] And being that I would say second person at hand in helping us find that talent is really key. We are the partners as a recruiting team, but having a cheerleader from the forefront with the manager just makes the process much easier.
[00:20:45] Tushar: That's great. We spoke about flexibility when it comes to finance.
[00:20:50] One of the things that we have heard from finance leaders is that they're really working hard to reduce. Variance from the [00:21:00] budget. If you're spending more, not very good. Even if you're spending less, not very good because that money could be allocated to some other team. Yeah.
[00:21:08] Tracking in your previous roles, and if yes, how have you done that and how do you support that endeavor?
[00:21:16] Raman Mann: Yeah, I definitely heard of variance tracking, essentially like what was budgeted and what actually happened and that indifference. I've seen cases where based on variance spending, we would allocate certain budget [00:21:30] towards either upleveling, another role in a department.
[00:21:33] Kind of would you say, like horse trading, being able to move this budget to another essential team and help them close the headcount. In terms of just advice or just seeing then how recruiting can come into play is really keeping in mind of all the changes that come through being in sync with finance of what is that variance change or how can we use that as our advantage and help from the next talent or any hard to field roles we have at hand.
[00:21:58] Tushar: , you spoke about keeping [00:22:00] track of all these changes. Yes. Can you share, like how would you, how have you optimized using a tool or maybe a spreadsheet in order to keep track of all of these changes and secondly Yeah, communicate this back to finance and also to hiring managers.
[00:22:14] Raman Mann: Yeah. I've definitely seen in cases where having that manual spreadsheet, keeping in mind of what was.
[00:22:20] Plan for and budgeting what actually happens in terms of what was signed at the offer. Keeping that track within that spreadsheet all having that then reviewed, whether it's during monthly [00:22:30] syncs or core leasing syncs has really helped keeping finance to understand that we're both on, at the end of the day working together towards finding talent efficiently.
[00:22:39] And. That spreadsheet could essentially be reviewed with finance, also be seen as a source of truth with what they have. Being able to have that quarterly check in, or whether it's monthly with finance, I think is very key. I've seen it in the case in the past during my time at FinTech company as well as the health tech one I was at.
[00:22:57] That's great.
[00:22:58] Tushar: How, what [00:23:00] would be the cause I probably think this falls under And not all systems are automatically connected, but so how, what is the effort that it would, you also mentioned you do this monthly or quarterly. Yeah. But what effort does it take to prepare a manual spreadsheet or keep the manual spreadsheet up
[00:23:18] Raman Mann: to date?
[00:23:19] I would that's a great question. Definitely I would say Weekly type of controls that come into play whether it's what new hires have been filled in at any moment, when a shift changes [00:23:30] with the headcount, whether it's filled. Transferred into a different department. Keeping track of that at that moment has been really much a, either a pain point because you have to track it at that moment.
[00:23:41] But also it's a differential of having the accurate information at the right time. Ideally, you can have that all automated and not have to be tracked by yourself. But I've seen in the past when doing this, it's using that time right at that moment when it occurs to be tracked within the spreadsheet.
[00:23:57] Tushar: There is a manual effort to keep things [00:24:00] up to date and probably cause of that manual effort. I may. I'm assuming that's why you have mentioned, you've been talking about the cadence to be once a month or once every quarter.
[00:24:10] But now we've also moved into this new world of connected systems connected via realtime APIs. Is there benefit of
[00:24:18] keeping things up to date in a more realtime basis? Will that result in efficiencies that can be better for the business? Have any thoughts on that would [00:24:30] just be very interesting to our,
[00:24:32] Raman Mann: that's a great question. I'd say ideally it makes you just more seamless and just not having to manually update and keep things whenever you're viewing it at any time to have the most up-to-date information.
[00:24:44] I have seen cases where a delay of information. Essentially isn't always a bad thing in the, essentially whatever we were going to go for in terms of a decision doesn't go as planned. Not having the information [00:25:00] as we wanted it right then and there doesn't relate to deter what we were going to do next.
[00:25:05] Just from a recruiting ops perspective, I would always say whenever you see the most up to date information, whether it's decisions that have been made and having that all done in real time, it is definitely a game changer. You wanna be looking at things within the perspective, how the company is performing right now, what decisions were made in terms of talent changes with filling a new role.
[00:25:25] Ideally, I think for the rec ops person, at the end of the day it would be ideal to have a real time [00:25:30] updates
[00:25:30] Tushar: and. Continuing on the realtime update question is at Stack Ops, do you find yourself at the center of receiving a lot of questions from stakeholders about the current status of the headcount plan?
[00:25:47] So how often, how, what are the types of questions that say business leaders want to know?
[00:25:52] Raman Mann: Yeah, definitely. When do you think this will be filled? When it comes to also why is it taking so long? And essentially being able to understand [00:26:00] how many hires have we made in a certain department?
[00:26:02] Where do you think x amount of folks would start within the next quarter? Those type of questions definitely always come up as a rec ops person. Having that idea of where that performance is, whether it's looking at, whether it's a change within job leveling, that will definitely. Change the search overall.
[00:26:19] And then ultimately affect the target start date of when someone is, when is when someone is actually going to be joining the company. And that kind of goes then boggles back on down to [00:26:30] finances, pro projections of target start dates and having certain compensation for a certain time.
[00:26:35] Tushar: Has living in this new remote, first distributed world where all these stakeholders are not just in, they're not in the same office anymore. How do you make sure that we drive. Collaboration and alignment. Like I, I think we have to take some deliberate steps so that everybody's on the same page. Even even if you have real time data, that is one half of the equation.
[00:26:59] The [00:27:00] other half is how is this data being pushed out to the right stakeholders and how we are driving visibility to all of them. So what are some of the things that you are doing differently now that we are all working from home to drive alignment and collaboration?
[00:27:15] Raman Mann: Yeah, I definitely would say bringing in HR VPs as they are more of the eyes and ears of the organization for the departments that they support.
[00:27:25] Particularly, you'll get so many great insights, just being able to loop in your H [00:27:30] R B P of what the talent mapping looks like for a certain organization. Whether it could be someone working towards. Back filling another role or being able to understand where those gaps are. I think having, whether it's, I'd say one-on-one meetings with biweekly with H Hrps can definitely be a game changer.
[00:27:51] Having them be able to provide those insights of how you're trying to fulfill certain gaps of talent within a certain department that they're supporting, [00:28:00] having that Synchrony is very important and we have to collaborate with them on providing those insights.
[00:28:04] Tushar: Can we, can you describe so let's say there is an existing organization, let's take a simple example that there is an chart of all the people already in seat now There. Create an org chart of all the open future rules, right? Do you do something of, in those lines where using a tool or just using spreadsheets, I would say Google Slides or something that you create like an org chart that allows you to [00:28:30] do the talent mapping?
[00:28:32] Have, I would love to understand like, how do you do those talent mapping and what does that conversation with the HR ppp entail?
[00:28:39] Raman Mann: Yeah, definitely. That is, I've seen most of my cases where the H R P leads that conversation being able to provide that organizational design. I've seen it in cases where it is done through a PowerPoint slide in which we predict of what that looks like in terms of annual request for a headcount, where they can draw us a picture or chart [00:29:00] where they see future headcount filling.
[00:29:02] And we're, where recruiting will essentially fill those account needs. I've also seen cases where there's no structure at all, where it's just no design from the forefront, which really causes a lot of problems towards the end of talents, towards the end of actually finding the right talent.
[00:29:18] Now, having that pre-planning of what that design looks like definitely is a detrimental thing for recruiting. Once they find filling that role, you may be hiring someone for a team that actually. The company wasn't really [00:29:30] needing or filling a role that wasn't actually a great fit.
[00:29:34] Tushar: Any best practices you can share around organizational design? I don't, this is a hotly demanded topic, but again, yeah. Something that we not, I think there's a lot of theory and literature around it, but not very practical information. Even if you browse the web. So from your vantage point, how do you see.
[00:29:53] What does good organizational design look like?
[00:29:56] Raman Mann: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, I would say it's being [00:30:00] able to see what the current state is of an organization, what those goals are or the future state is, and being able to design based on those two where you are, where the gaps are, and filling and designing how you can fill those gaps.
[00:30:15] So you know what the current state is, you wanna get somewhere in terms of the talent strategy, meet that business need. Organizational design is pretty much being able to visually showcase that finding where you can actually feel those needs at hand. For me it's as a visual learner, I find it [00:30:30] always helpful to be able to showcase something in a visual manner.
[00:30:34] Being able to utilize organizational in that sense is definitely helpful. For us to then actually put into paper and see that we can also then make decisions of whether does that really make sense to have that much flat hierarchy or whether it makes sense for that organization to have more of a layer structured.
[00:30:52] Tushar: We've covered a lot of different topics, but I wanted to, in the next few minutes bring our conversation. [00:31:00] To, to a close was looking for two key. I'll ask you two key questions and would love to get your insights on those first. Sure. For future folks who are, who want to follow your career path, who wanna get into recruiting operations, can you provide some insights on how they should get started? Who are the right people? And what are the rights beginner roles that can allow them to graduate into being recruiting operations, what they [00:31:30] should be learning, and then what they should be focusing on.
[00:31:32] You've got this illustrate career. What would be your advice and blueprint for future Red Ops professionals?
[00:31:40] Raman Mann: Yeah, I would say really I've seen many different throughout like just my peer network, a lot of different backgrounds going to rec ops. Overall, I've seen a common trend that having a natural understanding of just processes and how they work from start to finish whether you can be a ops coordinator within recruiting itself or [00:32:00] just ops coordinator within a business.
[00:32:02] I think having that understanding and foundation really sets you up for success when it comes to understanding how one thing essentially can be dependent on changing something else. And that's really what recruiting ops deal with from the day-to-day front. It's a lot of cha is a lot of dependencies of how that could essentially ultimately change the forefront of find the next TA talent.
[00:32:25] Whether that's like compensation leveling, being able to have that all designed [00:32:30] in a certain concise manner and keeping that forefront of having structure within the process is what I find has been very. At the end of the day, a key skill for a lot of the rec ops folks I've met. And also, and this can come from just having an understanding how recruiting works, the process itself.
[00:32:48] Being a recruiter, you can definitely transition into rec ops, you know how recs are filled. You understand how the intake meetings work and how to close candidates. You have that ready from the forefront. [00:33:00] You actually are living in that process. Recruiters for sure can definitely go into the space as well.
[00:33:05] Tushar: That's great. The next question is a little bit of philosophical question. I, somebody had told me really wisely that you do not know what you haven't lived what I'm trying to get to is that the last, many years, but let's just focus on the last few years where grow at all costs, spend the money, we'll be able to raise the next round.
[00:33:27] Hyper. I think the word [00:33:30] hypergrowth now has a little bad rep, right? Yeah. If you start looking at the rear view mirror on what you have seen in the past. So two questions on this, what would you do differently and what should people be really careful about? Is that my first question? And the second question is that how optimistic are you about the future?
[00:33:51] And what makes, what brings that optimism to you? You can take a minute to think about
[00:33:55] Raman Mann: it. Yeah. In terms of differently with recruiting operations, [00:34:00] I'd say is being really flexible and having that mentality of understanding that things won't go as planned. But being able to have a plan with B or C and having the forefront with hypergrowth types of phase phases for companies.
[00:34:20] From my experience, a lot of the times it does not go as planned, but having that back sense of, I know that if this doesn't go as planned, but I have a plan B or C, [00:34:30] it's really helped me to be able to bring that competitive edge to companies. I've seen it in the case where it has also hasn't bring any much fruition, but I find for myself that being flexible and being more okay with that is something that could be really essentially a successful criteria for any kind of hypergrowth startup.
[00:34:48] In terms of optimism. For the future. I do feel optimistic. I think there's a lot of systems that are coming into play for headcount planning that is gonna change and hopefully replace the [00:35:00] spreadsheet that many of the rec ops partitioners are familiar with or Google sheets. There is. An understanding that this is a issue that can be done better, could be a process essentially that is captured within a system.
[00:35:14] I'm seeing a lot of software companies that are actually trying to address this, and I'm I do definitely feel optimistic. I can't wait to see it grow further.
[00:35:22] Tushar: That's great. I think at that very optimistic note. Ramon, thank you for spending your time with us. I think we [00:35:30] covered a lot of different topics and you shared some amazing insights, so I really appreciate it.
[00:35:34] Thank you so
[00:35:35] Raman Mann: much. Yeah, thank you Tara. Appreciate it too. Thanks for having me.